Nitrous and the Mazda6 - General Discussion

[jrsy91gmc]

Yes, it's been discussed before. But I want to start it back up... with some more technical, open-minded, educated discussion. Why? Because I want some... :) eventually... just to toy with...

We all know what nitrous is. But let's make one important point before we start - the extra power gained from using nitrous oxide comes from the EXTRA FUEL burned in the process... the nitrous itself is only an enabler. Nitrous doesn't burn by itself... if you don't add fuel with it, you're not accomplishing anything. It's the exact same principle as head/cam swaps, turbos, or anything else... more oxygen in the cylinder means more fuel in the cylinder, and the more mixture you burn the more power you get (well, should get)...

I've seen what I think is some misunderstanding here, so let's clear something else up quickly as well. You have "dry" kits, and "wet" kits. A "wet" kit "sprays" the supplementary fuel through the intake tract along with the nitrous. Usually, this uses some sort of nozzle with 2 hoses attached; it's called a "wet" kit because the intake manifold is "wet" with the fuel. A "dry" kit injects only nitrous into the intake; the supplementary fuel is supplied through the factory fuel system. THIS SYSTEM DOES NOT RELY ON THE ECU TO ADD FUEL ON IT'S OWN, OR JUST HOPE THE MIXTURE IS ALREADY RICH ENOUGH TO WORK.

Let's get that one more time... A DRY KIT DOES NOT JUST "HOPE" THE COMPUTER WILL ACCOUNT FOR THE JUICE WITH THE REQUIRED INCREASE IN FUEL.. THE FACTORY PIG RICH TUNING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT NITROUS WILL WORK ON THE CAR.

Some kits (like Zex) interface with the fuel pressure regulator, and supply needed fuel through it. Others (like Venom), interface with the injectors and force them to stay open longer... but nevertheless, the kit is supplying extra fuel when the system is energized...


Now, with that out of the way...

The only N2O related engine failure I know of was atom4wat's Venom-powered car, caused by a lean condition. I do not know if his EGR tube was cut. We do know the EGR tube will cause one bank to run a bit leaner than the other... by several % (up to 7%, IIRC).

It is this discrepancy, coupled with the Venom's (admittedly uber-cool) method of operation, that I see as the problem. The Venom's control unit connects to the vehicle's O2 sensor and fuel injectors... it uses the O2 sensor readings to pulse the injectors to provide the necessary amount of fuel for the N2O being injected and maintain the correct A/F ratio.

This is great, in theory. It's measuring the actual A/F ratio, and injecting a precise amount of fuel. It works great with returnless fuel systems, as it's simply pulsing the injectors itself to suit it's needs. There's no fuel plumbing to fool with. There's only a nitrous jet to change, and nothing else. It's computer controlled, has it's own failsafe... it's the bomb...

Problem is, it makes an assumption. Since it's measuring the A/F at one O2 sensor, it's basically measuring the A/F ratio from one bank (whichever sensor you use). In essence, it's fueling for that bank; you're ASSUMING the other bank is identical. Unfortunately, this isn't the case. If you happen to be reading the bank that runs richer, then the module is going to fuel as necessary for that richer bank. That bank is going to run spot on. But the other bank is going to continue to run lean (it's getting more air/nitrous, but getting the same amount of fuel), whilst the module keeps reading an agreeable A/F ratio... and things melt down...

Is atom around? Which O2 sensor did they hook your setup up to? The front bank one, or the rear?

Discuss my theory. I may be off my rocker... but it's making sense right now. The system might work great on a 4cyl car, with only 1 cyl bank. Then you have the failsafe of a system that's basing it's mixture on your actual A/F ratio, rather than your tuning... but on our V6's that have unbalanced manifolds, it's bad...


My thinking is that a wet system would be safe (well, safer... I don't know that any of it is "safe"), especially with the EGR tube cut back. Since the fuel is being injected in the same spot as the nitrous, it's all going to the same spot via the same route. IOW, as long as puddling isn't a problem, it's reasonably foolproof. Each hole gets as much fuel as it does nitrous, since it's being distributed by the natural airflow through the plenum.

Also, since we use separate fuel and N2O jets, we can measure the A/F ratios on BOTH banks with our scanner, and adjust our fuel jet separately to ENSURE we're not running lean. IOW, if one bank is a little close for comfort with the fuel jet the company recommends, we can go a tad larger. A little too rich on the other bank may cost a few ponies, but it saves a lot of parts...

Anyway, I was just looking to drum up some good tech discussion... dive in. And no "nitrous will blow your car up" crap... technically valuable input or questions only, please...

[jrsy91gmc]

I guess this all started as I watched my friend's fairly stock WS6 put 335HP on the rollers Saturday morning...

I know the 6 isn't really a straight line car... but I just wanna surprise somebody headed down the interstate on-ramp or something, every once in a while... :twisted:

[test_drive]

Interesting topic.
I have nothing to add, for I am a nitrous virgin....

However, I will point out that running an inline engine doesn't guarantee that the A/F ratios are the same for every cylinder. Distribution of air is still a function of the manifold. For example, in a 2nd gen MR2, cylinder #3 runs a tad leaner than the others.... if you are going to pop one, #3 is it.

Anyways, carry on!
Test_Drive

[jrsy91gmc]

I was speaking in terms of the 6s, but now that I think of it, you are correct... I imagine there is some variance in every manifold...

Provided the fuel stays atomized, this is one advantage to the wet system. Since the nitrous, air, and fuel are all atomized together, they all travel together...

[Gibby6]

I guess this all started as I watched my friend's fairly stock WS6 put 335HP on the rollers Saturday morning...

I know the 6 isn't really a straight line car... but I just wanna surprise somebody headed down the interstate on-ramp or something, every once in a while... :twisted:

Was that 335hp at the wheels from that WS6? Stock is what 325hp (at flywheel)? Not too impressive if he got that on the squeeze and at the flywheel. If that's to the wheels, that's sweet.

Great tech class on NO2. I personally would steer away from that unless you want to put money into other components including your engine. As we all should know, the increased and prolonged combustion amounts will only decrease the life of your motor. 'Course, if you can keep your thumb off the "Go Baby Go" button except for special occasions, you should be ok.

[jrsy91gmc]

Yeah, I think 325hp is the stock rating; 335hp/346tq at the wheels... no squeeze. Long tube headers, off road y pipe, SLP resonator with no muffler, LS1 Motorsports lid, oversized MAF and TB... that's about it...

Those cars are underrated. There are many stock Z28s out there (rated at 300hp crank hp) that chassis dyno 293-294... so unless GM figured out how to make a car with a 98% efficient drivetrain, something aint right... :)

If I did put nitrous in my 6 someday, I'd be *trying* to use it sparingly. Like a 50 shot, every so often as required... I was just more looking for some good, new tech discussion. We all kinda new atom44wat's motor failed due to the juice... I want to figure out how to STOP that from happening...

[Gibby6]

Yeah, I think 325hp is the stock rating; 335hp/346tq at the wheels... no squeeze. Long tube headers, off road y pipe, SLP resonator with no muffler, LS1 Motorsports lid, oversized MAF and TB... that's about it...

Those cars are underrated. There are many stock Z28s out there (rated at 300hp crank hp) that chassis dyno 293-294... so unless GM figured out how to make a car with a 98% efficient drivetrain, something aint right... :)

The 4th-gen LS1 Z28's were rated at around 285HP, including the B4C (the LS1-powered Interceptor V6-looking Camaros), but the SS and WS6 were at 325HP with Ram-Air. Both take very limited money to make SCREAM on the 1/4 mile.

hahah, "trying" is right to keep your hand off the nitrous button!! :wink:

[crossbow]

Whodiddy's motor also required rebuilding due to the juice. There are two other members who never posted on their issues (sketchy reasons and were trying to weasel stuff from the dealerships), that also had motors go from the juice.

So 4 for 4 so far on dry shots. (All 6s). There is a 6i owner running it right now, going to do a UOA, hopefully we'll see if ring wear is excessive. The 3s owner who sprayed ended up obliterating 3rd gear in a bad shift.

FalconX and sikman are planning on 55 wet shots, so we'll see how that goes (6s).

[Gibby6]

These guys must have more money than they know what to do with...


I know I can't afford to blow a clutch/tranny or a motor just because I wanted to make an idiot in a 5.0 look stupid...

[m6speed]

The 3s owner who sprayed ended up obliterating 3rd gear in a bad shift.

my buddy sprays in his z28 camaro, has 120,000 miles or so, still stock tranny, says he doesn't spray on shifts, that way he can save his tranny from a beating.

[jrsy91gmc]

I think this, along with crossbow's post about the 3 owner, is a good contrasting illustration of an important point...

Nitrous is no different in function than a turbo, supercharger, or a set of fancy heads and a big cam... the bottom line is your getting more usable oxygen into the chambers, which means more fuel into the chambers. More fuel to burn = bigger boom... bigger boom means more power (in theory). A 55-60 shot on a 220hp motor (using factory crank rating for simplicity) is no different than a low boost (4-5) psi turbo kit in terms of power production... or a set of heads and a good cam(s). You can have a motor last a long time, if it's well maintained, used correctly, and not abused... or you can kill a motor in an instant if you're not careful.

The problem with N2O is that the delivery is very abrupt (which stresses parts), and it's ALL or nothing. Kinda like a turbo that makes instant full boost at any time. You hit the button... you're getting 55hp worth of oxygen RIGHT NOW, in one giant burst. You can't just use a little bit (well, unless you get one of those progressive controllers)... it's there, and it's there right now, and you better hope nothing goes wrong. If it does, you have little or no time to avert crisis... if the fuel doesn't show up with the juice, you're hella lean... if the drivetrain has slack in it, it's fixing to get an extra 60hp worth of shock over what it was before...

Ideally, you just spend a little extra money on failsafes, pay attention to what you're doing, and be smart. Buy a fuel pressure switch to help eliminate a super lean condition due to a faulty solenoid, etc; put an RPM window switch in as well, to keep you out of the factory rev limiter. Use a scanner/wideband regularly to make sure you're not leaning out too much; and/or read your plugs to keep tabs on individual holes...

Just my thoughts... I enjoy random technical discussion. I'd like to put a small wet kit (50hp or so) on my car sometime, just for a little "shock and awe"... :)

[atom44wat]

These guys must have more money than they know what to do with...


I know I can't afford to blow a clutch/tranny or a motor just because I wanted to make an idiot in a 5.0 look stupid...

First off with this post. I wish I had the extra money lying around! I approached Venom with the idea lasst summer as they are down the street from me. The agreed to test the kit on my car at the time and I gave them my car to use. The kit worked great. They told me to go have fun. It was fun I had.

During our track attack weekend last year i went down the strip pushing the car 14 times in a row spraying. Now we all know that excessive heat is not good for the car. And with me pushing the car and essentially abusing it this did not help. It was fate that I was going to loose the motor. I just didn't realize it at the time. I was miseducated about it and just wanted to use my free Nitrous kit and smoke eveyone. Hell I took Blazen at the time with his turbo no problem. It felt great.

At the time i was running on a K&N intake and a magnaflow exhaust. The Nitrous was tapped into the intake.

Due to my engine faliure which involved burned rings and a spun bearing I have been muc much more cautios with the bottle.

I am still running the spray and as recently as this vegas trip I sprayed. My mods have changed since the partially due to the engine faliure. I honestly am still scared of t and only use the juice when I am at the track. I have only really sprayed 2 times. Once to test and once at the track.

My setup now is the Injen with the CPE/MAFci, MSDS headers, and the magnaflow exhaust. Going down the track was the best feeling I have had in a long time. In contrast to the last time in Oct. this was WAY smoother. The car did not jerk around at all while pulling down the track. I didn't spray again because hell I was in vegas and didn't want to tow my car home from there. The nitrouse is still performing great but with proper knowledge and without the abuse it can be done safely. With proper knowledge i mean understanding how the engine will work with the spray as well.

Now as for the EGR tube being cut/no it wasn't. My manifold remains the same. As far as which O2 sensor the kit is hooked up to I can't rember off the top of my head, but if a few of you would like pictures of my engine i can supply those for you with the details of the connections.

I enjoy this kit an hope to do so, however i also understand the risks I am taking!! I have been through one motor and i know i can go through the 2nd just as easy.

[crossbow]

I heavily recommend a Dyson analysis through blackstone ASAP.

This will pickup any chromium (ring wear), or alumnium/tin (rod bearing) wear thats abnormal, and tell you if the nos is destroying the engine again.

With things like nitrous, you won't know the damage is done until its too late. A UOA will let you know its occuring, and let you back off before you need to replace another engine.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/dyson_analysis.html

Also based on the data available, I would never spray a dry shot into our engines. Stick with wet, or don't do it at all. Every single owner whose sprayed a dry shot has ended up with an engine replacement!!! (6s V6)

[jrsy91gmc]

but if a few of you would like pictures of my engine i can supply those for you with the details of the connections.


I'd be interested in seeing the setup; especially in seeing for sure which O2 sensor they tapped the wiring into...

[crossbow]

Here's the old photos for those interested.
http://www.3dluvr.com/crossbow/incoming/Mazda/

[RottenWillow]

Are there any reputable and relatively 6s safe wet systems anyone can recommend?

[thumper]

I think something kinda obvious has been overlooked when talking about a dry system. Our stock injectors will only flow so much fuel (lbs/hour or something like that). The problem is that you can potentially run the pulse for the injector right up to MAX and not be able to deliver enough fuel to avoid a lean condition.

Think about it. What do you usually get with a turbo kit? Higher flowing injectors to handle the extra fuel needed for the boost.

Another reason to only consider a wet shot and even there you should find out if you got the fuel flow you need.

[crossbow]

So far, every single 6s...everyone, be it wet or dry shot, has ended up with some sort of engine damage.

At this point in time, without careful engine management, I would avoid nitrous on the v6 platform. The track record for failure is currently 100%. =/

[RottenWillow]

Think about it. What do you usually get with a turbo kit? Higher flowing injectors to handle the extra fuel needed for the boost.

Another reason to only consider a wet shot and even there you should find out if you got the fuel flow you need.

Is it extremely lean condtions that are causing the engine failures that have been reported here, or is that debatable?

[thumper]

Based on the engine failures I've seen posted from Crossbow and the like, I'd say most have to do with detonation which is most likely caused by a lean condition. The engine failures have been spun bearings on the rear bank of cylinders. Contact between the upper bearing half and the rod journal resulted in a spun rod bearing.

[crossbow]

Ya that appears to be tthe primary damage cause. Ring damage occurs before then though, with as much as a 40% compression loss in just a few sprays. It has to be something to do with the distribution of the nitrous/fuel in the cylinders. Its gotta be pretty off for this to occur so consistently. Even those with widebands enountered damage. The wideband was in the green...which means one of the banks is probably going rich, while the other is lean...

We need to find out which bank is consistently lean and put the wideband ON that bank (instead of after the banks combine), OR put widebands on both banks.

[RottenWillow]

Based on the engine failures I've seen posted from Crossbow and the like, I'd say most have to do with detonation which is most likely caused by a lean condition. The engine failures have been spun bearings on the rear bank of cylinders. Contact between the upper bearing half and the rod journal resulted in a spun rod bearing.

I know there are prodigious gaps in my knowledge base, but it does sound like if they had upgraded to injectors that could supply more fuel, these engine failures could've been prevented. I know we had to do that when we increased the JR on the RSX from 5 to 8%.

Burned rings though, that's a seperate issue, right? They're getting cooked by all the extra heat, and should be upgraded if someone is spraying frequently?

[thumper]

yes, rings are another issue. I don't know the make up of the factory rings but I believe the serious Nitrous racers (like in IHRA) use a ring that is specifically made to withstand the combustion pressures of Nitrous. While you are there, you might as well put in forged pistons, better rods, upgrades the bearings somehow (maybe go to babbit and pin them).

[84FordMan]

To explain it quite simply:

- The intake manifold design SUCKS. It causes an imbalance in fuel trim, due to an imbalance in air. So when you are shooting nitrous, you are adding to that imbalance, the front bank is recieving more nitrous than the rear bank.

Best case scenario: You blow the rings and lose an assload of compression, but car still runs (Like crap). Case in point, my store manager's 04 6S wagon with a Zex wet system.

Worst case scenario: Spun rod bearing, engine gone. Case in point, atom44wat's car prototyping Venom's dry system.

----

The factory sinter forged rods do not need replacing. Contour owners have seen daily use with Duratecs putting 350 FWHP down and with engine speeds up to 8,250 RPM. The rod bearings are the weakest point. Upgrade to Clevite Tri-metals.

[crossbow]

What gets me about all the nitrous discussion....Is that the noble M12 uses the same plastic intake manifold...only without the EGR.

Maybe the issue stems from the fact the liquid nitrous can't be equally distributed more then the air being equally distributed. Its all quite confusing to me. I will say after about 3,000 miles with the EGR cut (and no reset), the LFT's (@ idle) are relatively close to one another (1.5% off) between the two banks, which was significantly better then the 7% or so prior to the modification.

[jrsy91gmc]

The nitrous is a gas once it hits atmostpheric pressure... it distributes just like air does. But, it could be a fuel puddling problem, since our intake wasn't designed to flow liquids. If the fuel falls out of suspension, it doesn't reach the cylinders = some holes lean...

The true test of whether this is the problem is to read the A/F ratios for EACH cylinder under spray... which of course is a lot of work.

Someone needs to try a direct port system... then you know damn well that both components are getting distributed perfectly. But, that means someone has got to pony up the $$, as well as the effort to plumb one up... :(

[84FordMan]

jrsy, NOS NOSzle direct injection system for a universal 6-cylinder is only like $800. They offer fuel injector sandwich adapters for all kinds.

[jrsy91gmc]

Yeah... it's not all that bad considering what you're getting, but somebody still has to ante up the $800 just to see if it works any better. And what if it's just really crappy main bearings, and you spend $1000 on a "fix all" nitrous setup and STILL toast a bottom end?

Not to mention do the plumbing for 6 individual nozzles. I wouldn't mind giving it a shot, but I don't have the $$ to spending on that... :(

In fact, let me rephrase that. I'd LOVE to plumb a direct port setup in. I had my intake off the other night doing plugs, and was just thinking how I'd love to be bending hardlines into place underneath it... but I'm short a lot of $$ for that kinda toy right now...

[2fast4ur6]

Has anybody tried to just replace our crank bearings? Ansd is it main bearing or rod bearings that are seeing the brunt of the damage? Because if it is just the rod bearings, then couldn't we just drop the oil pan and replace those in about an hour? I know on a lot of vehicles, it is relativley easy to do...just my two cents.

[84FordMan]

The strength of the rod or main bearings have absolutely nothing to do with this.

It's the fact that more nitrous is loading on the front bank than it is on the rear cylinder bank and that imbalance is causing nitrous backfires, which occur in either one of two ways, upwards or downwards. Downwards, it sends so much force down on one set of three pistons than it does on the other three, thus causing the spun main bearings or thrown rod. Upwards, an actual explosion in the intake manifold. I've seen both.

There are ONLY TWO ways to correct this:

- Redesign the upper intake manifold.

- Direct-port nitrous, which sandwiches the nitrous in with the fuel injectors, therefore bypassing the upper intake manifold.

[2fast4ur6]

Did you ever get to try that aluminum IM from the jaguar? I remember reading about you trying it about a year or so ago. You were going to do some head work and fill and drill some new manifold bolts for it, but i never heard anything about you actually accomplishing it. Does that one have a more balanced flow or are all the Duratec IMs poorly designed? Because i have a NX wet kit that i have been wanting to pu8t on my car, but i was waiting for my warranty to expire, and that just happened about 3 months ago. So this deeply interests me. Thanks fordman
>>Robert

[84FordMan]

It's a problem that didn't plague the Contour owners, so it's exclusive to the plastic UIM, which is found on all 01+ Duratecs, save for the Lincoln and Jag variants, which were aluminum, but if memory serves, they were still designed in the similar flawed fashion.

The Jag manifold was too pricey when I originally checked it and that was getting it at cost too. I bought a 1999 Taurus 3.0L manifold set from fastcougar, which is a split-port manifold. It's still sitting in the garage, never got around to buying the necessary tools to port it to oval port and moving the injector boss to the center.

The amount of money you would pour into buying the same manifold set and fixing it to work and you would of spent more than you would have for a direct-port nitrous kit, which fixes all issues.

[RottenWillow]

- Direct-port nitrous, which sandwiches the nitrous in with the fuel injectors, therefore bypassing the upper intake manifold.

I've been looking at this possiblity all day.

The design of our IM makes it very hard to locate all this nozzles in exactly the same spot above each port. That's really key to a good port injection setup.

The only way I can see to drill and tap ports for N2O/fuel nozzles is to Dremel the big fat overhangs on each runner That would maybe provide the neccesary clearance to properly positon and orient each nozzle in the same place above all six ports.

Also, I wondering if a basic kit delivering a wet shot before the TB would be an option for me. My EGR is trimmed way down such that NONE of the pipe intrudes into the airstream anymore. I'm not looking to be greedy for power also. I'm thinking 35, maybe 50 shot at most.

[chambers7867]

i think your missing the way that the Nozzles system works... it doesnt matter which way the nozzles are pointing (just like your fuel injectiors... mine are upside down) think of the nozzles system as mearly spacers placed inbetween your fuel injector and the fuel rail. RottenWillow.. i've been looking to see if you have a v6 or i4 but have found no success.. in any event. a wetshot on a v6 is bad a dry shot on a v6 is worse dont get me wronge.. there is no if and and butts about it.. everyone who has sprayed in their v6 6 has had their engine blowen.. im just tying to save u a big bill.. as for i4 as long as you take the right steps and your not greedy/stupid (as u stated) about it. it's fine (a wet shot that is).

here is what exactly a Nozzle looks like/and is on a fuel injector:
http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/large08001NOS.jpg
and here it is installed on a car:
http://www.nitrousdirect.com/images/big1.jpg

whileis here is a regular direct port nitrous system..:
http://gatherings.3si.org/Tampa2003/tampa-gathering-2003-march-501.jpg
see how the nozzles have to be drillled tapped and sometimes a bung welded in place

and just for good measures this is a wet system installed on a 6i.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f118/chambers7867/061506_06002.jpg

a dry system will almost look the same except there will only be 1 hose comming to the nitrous shark nozzle.

i hope this helps someone..[/img]

[RottenWillow]

i think your missing the way that the Nozzles system works... it doesnt matter which way the nozzles are pointing

I didnt say anything about which way the nozzles are pointing. I have a Duratec. The ports for the rear bank are very difficult to get to. It's not going to be easy to get the nozzle 1.5" above the port the way the instructions on Nitrous Express suggest. The nozzles on the rear bank ports will have to be further away than the nozzles on the front bank ports. I'm not sure what effect that would have.

The primary reason Duratecs in the 6s fail is due to the design of the IM used. Ask Fordman if the 3.0 in the Contours failed like the ones in the 6. They dont. The difference....our crappy IM.

Mike has done some readings and the variance between his front and rear banks is zero at WOT. He and I both have cut EGR tubes, mine even more so than his. Since N20 will only be spraying at WOT, the possibility of a severely fuel starved bank might be eliminated. That leaves the other problems inherent to N20, burned rings and engine fatigue due to the sudden jolt to the internals.

[chambers7867]

The design of our IM makes it very hard to locate all this nozzles in exactly the same spot above each port. That's really key to a good port injection setup.
if you werent talking about the angle wtf were u talking about here?

and both the 2.3l and the 3.0l are both duratec's so saying you have a duratec just slims the possiblility that u acadently strayed from the rx8 forums and started reading the 6 forums. ;)

[jrsy91gmc]

I think she's talking about a true direct-port setup. I agree... I don't think there's room. I spent some time looking into that as well. I think one of those injector-spacer setups is the way to go.

As has been covered before, the problem with a wet shot is that our UIM may not distribute liquids evenly. So even if you eliminate the EGR tube and everything breathes the same, all holes may not get enough fuel, and there's no way to tell which are/are not ok, unless you have a way to check A/F on each one. Fuel puddles on the walls of any intake manifold... but we don't know what's going on inside this one. It's not hard to imagine that all those bends and turns are not good for keeping fuel in suspension though...

A dry kit could work fine, in theory, if it were installed right. I'm still not 100% sure why the Venom kit didnt work out. I have a feeling if you got the airflow balanced out(cut EGR and such) and made sure the system was monitoring the O2 sensor on the LEANER bank, it would be ok. Direct port is the "no questions" way of making sure things get where they need to be.


There's no reason this motor shouldn't tolerate a little hit like any other (especially a mild one). However,we know it has some airflow problems out of the box, and I don't think anyone has really tried spraying one after it's had all those bugs worked out. I do think our OE rings probably suck. The shop that built my shortblock said mine were quite worn after 63k ("spirited") miles WITHOUT nitrous. I'm sure some damage occured during the "mishap", but they were surprised. That has nothing to do with it eating rod bearings though...

[djquik1]

the NOS Nozzle system does work,but you still have to address the tuning issue with the pcm.And the rings in a duratec will not take much of a shot of NOS,maybe a 50hp shot.Seen it on a taurus(don't ask)

[RottenWillow]

I think she's talking about a true direct-port setup. I agree... I don't think there's room. I spent some time looking into that as well. I think one of those injector-spacer setups is the way to go.



yes that's what she's talking about.

From your comment it sounds like you know exactly the problems I'm seeing with our IM and tapping each runner for direct port. The runners for the rear bank are so close together I see little chance of tapping them anywhere but on top of each one, which would put the nozzles 2+ inches from the ports. Due to their shape, the front bank runners would only allow taps considerably closer to the ports, more like an inch. Based on the install instructions I've read, homogenaity of the taps seems very important.

Fill me in on the injector-spacers you mentioned. First I've heard of that.

[chambers7867]

did u not read my post! the first picture is a direct port "nozzles" system or "the spacer system" the "nozzles" go inbetween your fuel rail and injector and sandwich between them!

check out www.nosnitrous.com for more details.
a good nozzles system is going to run about 1100 bucks though.



oh and for drilling into any mazda 6s or i manafold.. is that really a good idea anyways even if u could line up the "shark nozzles" in correct path flowing right to the banks... you'de be driling into platic... one screw up and it's over.. aluminum you can reweld and start again. same goes with any other metal.. but platic is hard to drill because it expands rapidly. and it's really easy to stip out if you tap somthing and scew it into.

[djquik1]

if anyone is interested,maybe we should start a group buy for the nozzle system for our cars,now we just need the tuning figured out

[chambers7867]

if anyone is interested,maybe we should start a group buy for the nozzle system for our cars,now we just need the tuning figured out


in all honstly i dont think u will get enough people wanting to buy a 1100 dollar product that u have to invest 50 bucks in every "8 minutes of acutal use. that'll be like a gb for a turbo charger...


but good luck..

(try nitrousdirect.com)

[jrsy91gmc]

To drill and tap a true "direct port" setup, I think you'd want to install the nozzles into the LIM (which is aluminum) giving the mixture the best path to the valves. Unfortunately, there still isn't really room. Everything is just too tightly packaged.


The "spacers" I'm talking about are what chambers is talking about... like these:
NOS NOSzle (http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/largeFord4.6Lv2.jpg)

That's actually installed on a 2V Ford, but you can see the little blue pieces installed under the injectors, with the lines running to them. Nitrous Express sells an equivalent setup.


No need to re-tune... at least there shouldn't be. Especially given that the motor is already tuned to run on 87, there really shouldn't be any reason to pull timing with any reasonable amount of N2O any 6 owner would try to run... especially if you're not going over a 50 shot. The fuel is delivered stand-alone...

I really don't even understand why the rings won't stand up to reasonable use. 50hp worth of jug is just 50hp worth of extra oxygen and gasoline in the cylinders... no different than flowing an extra 50hp worth through the addition of CAIs and headers and all that crap. Hell, with the spray you get the charge cooling effect and the "dampening" effect of the nitrogen that you don't get with N/A power addition. If people can boost the 3.0L without killing it in short time, it's not obvious to me why spraying one is any different, other than less attention to setup/fueling. The shop was surprised at how little ring was left, but they weren't like "Holy freakin crap alive these are the most horrible rings ever produced". Just that, basically, they were probably cheap, and on the crappy side of OE parts.

[RottenWillow]

To drill and tap a true "direct port" setup, I think you'd want to install the nozzles into the LIM (which is aluminum) giving the mixture the best path to the valves. Unfortunately, there still isn't really room. Everything is just too tightly packaged.


The "spacers" I'm talking about are what chambers is talking about... like these:
NOS NOSzle (http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/largeFord4.6Lv2.jpg)

That's actually installed on a 2V Ford, but you can see the little blue pieces installed under the injectors, with the lines running to them. Nitrous Express sells an equivalent setup.


No need to re-tune... at least there shouldn't be. Especially given that the motor is already tuned to run on 87, there really shouldn't be any reason to pull timing with any reasonable amount of N2O any 6 owner would try to run... especially if you're not going over a 50 shot. The fuel is delivered stand-alone...

I really don't even understand why the rings won't stand up to reasonable use. 50hp worth of jug is just 50hp worth of extra oxygen and gasoline in the cylinders... no different than flowing an extra 50hp worth through the addition of CAIs and headers and all that crap. Hell, with the spray you get the charge cooling effect and the "dampening" effect of the nitrogen that you don't get with N/A power addition. If people can boost the 3.0L without killing it in short time, it's not obvious to me why spraying one is any different, other than less attention to setup/fueling. The shop was surprised at how little ring was left, but they weren't like "Holy freakin crap alive these are the most horrible rings ever produced". Just that, basically, they were probably cheap, and on the crappy side of OE parts.

Holy cow...yeah I didnt even consider tapping the lower since I couldnt see any way at all to get to the rear bank. True that would be ideal, but I didnt even see how that would be possible.

I'm not seeing the benefit of the spacers you guys are referring to. In my mind I'm picturing some sort of extension to connect the lower to the "pirahna" N20/fuel nozzles.

[jrsy91gmc]

Do you see the little blue pieces under the injectors in that picture? Those blue pieces ARE the nozzles now. Each has 2 lines... one fuel, one juice. The injector functions normally, spraying through the center. When you trigger the N2O, it shoots it's load down the same path as the injector. You don't use the y-shaped "normal" nozzles...

The benefit is that the only space it requires is what it takes up under the injector, and there's no need to drill/tap anything. Just pull the fuel rail, put the "NOSzles" on the injectors, and plumb it up. As long as there's room for the additional height above the fuel rail, you're good.

Look at the pic chambers posted up there. You can see the injector, and the cutaway of the part we're talking about. The green o-ring is the injector o-ring (inside the new "nozzle"). You can see one nipple where one of the lines would connect to the nozzle, and you can see the passageways inside the body where the fuel/nitrous would flow through.

[RottenWillow]

When you trigger the N2O, it shoots it's load down the same path as the injector.


THAT is way cool. The site I've been browsing doesnt have any nozzles like that.


EDIT: Ok what about this kit?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NOS-05040-FINOS

[rrhunt28]

If a person has the money to mess with all this...

Why not have a small very thin plate fabbed up that you could put injectors into between the upper manifold and the lower. Tiny jets would stick out into the air path and shoot atomized fule/nos into the engine...

The same basic concept used on older cars with carbs, basically a high rise plate with jets in it.

It would not however completely solve the lean v. rich issue, but it might help.

[chambers7867]

If a person has the money to mess with all this...

Why not have a small very thin plate fabbed up that you could put injectors into between the upper manifold and the lower. Tiny jets would stick out into the air path and shoot atomized fule/nos into the engine...

The same basic concept used on older cars with carbs, basically a high rise plate with jets in it.

It would not however completely solve the lean v. rich issue, but it might help.


or.. why not just buy a kit that's already made and proven to work and not leak.

[chambers7867]

When you trigger the N2O, it shoots it's load down the same path as the injector.


THAT is way cool. The site I've been browsing doesnt have any nozzles like that.


EDIT: Ok what about this kit?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NOS-05040-FINOS

no, that is a direct port kit for a 4 cylinder! and it's not a nozzles kit!

this is the NOSZLES kit for a v6.. the NoSles are to on the left of the picture in red and blue.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=NOS%2D08006NOS&N=700+115&autoview=sku

[RottenWillow]

When you trigger the N2O, it shoots it's load down the same path as the injector.


THAT is way cool. The site I've been browsing doesnt have any nozzles like that.


EDIT: Ok what about this kit?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NOS-05040-FINOS

no, that is a direct port kit for a 4 cylinder! and it's not a nozzles kit!


No actually it's for a 6 cylinder EFI. If you take 2 seconds to scroll to the bottom of the link you'd see that.

[chambers7867]

ok... well then.. where' s the other two shark nozzles... u need 6 total for a v6 and 4 for a four cylinder.. get it?

if u look at the description of "your" system u posted.. it says this..


Bottled power for fours, sixes, V-8s and rotary engines.



there's only 4 foggers there! where's the other two?

im done with this post.. there are only 3 or 4 of us in here spraying successfully. so good luck to you! i hope your next post is somthing like "i sprayed and now im broken"
because u wont listen to anyone with expierence. why dont u just home make it. lol

[jrsy91gmc]

ok... well then.. where' s the other two shark nozzles... u need 6 total for a v6 and 4 for a four cylinder.. get it?

if u look at the description of "your" system u posted.. it says this..


Bottled power for fours, sixes, V-8s and rotary engines.

there's only 4 foggers there! where's the other two?

im done with this post.. there are only 3 or 4 of us in here spraying successfully. so good luck to you! i hope your next post is somthing like "i sprayed and now im broken"
because u wont listen to anyone with expierence. why dont u just home make it. lol

If you read the damn caption UNDER the pic, you may have seen the part that said "Image is a representation of this part. Actual part may vary." I.e. what's in the pic isn't necessarily what you're going to get. In fact, the actual description for the part number does indeed say

"Nitrous Oxide System, Sportsman Fogger, Wet, 50-250 hp, 10 lb. Bottle, Blue, Direct Port, EFI, 6-Cylinder, Kit "


Foul ball man. If you don't want to keep trying to help, the rest of us can probably cover it. There's no reason to "hope" someone makes a mistake because they don't know as much as you seem to think you do. I kinda hope your next post will be "I thought I knew some shit, but it seems I was wrong." Then we'll all lol...

[chambers7867]

new = knew.. if your going to rag on some one get it right~!

[jrsy91gmc]

I fixed it. Thank you...

BTW, I think it's "experience"... not "expierence"; and you forgot the "e" in "something". You''ll have to edit them yourself though...

I'm not gonna whore up a forum going tit-for-tat with you on grammatical errors. Tellling somebody you "hope" they break their motor because they still aren't kosher with your explanation is not a good way to help though...

[chambers7867]

u know.. your right.. but you and i both posted the right kind of direct port nitrous kit that u would have to get if u were to spray nitrous in the v6 yet she's still posting the fogger system for some reason!

[RottenWillow]

When you trigger the N2O, it shoots it's load down the same path as the injector.


THAT is way cool. The site I've been browsing doesnt have any nozzles like that.


EDIT: Ok what about this kit?

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=NOS-05040-FINOS

Quoting myself b/c I'm so cool!

I am posting options. I dont think it's neccesary to foreclose any possibilities.

I think the kit linked above would be workable for the 3.0, but does of course require drilling and tapping of the lower manifold. It is a direct port system and the kit for the v6 is 40% less expensive than the kit that uses the stock fuel injector channel to deliver it's N20/fuel mix.

[jesse89]

isnt nitrous really bad for your engine, evven a dry kit?

[chambers7867]

lol.. awesome!

[jrsy91gmc]

Oh wow.

The short answer is "no". The longer answer is "it can be... if you screw it up, or the proverbial *shit* happens". Try starting at the beginning of this thread...

[philofthefuture]

willow, although direct port and multiple fogger kits are cute, i dont see them as practical or cost effective for your use. im assuming you daily drive your car and may to have fun on saturday nights or take it to the track on occasion... a properly installed, single fogger efi kit is more than capable of supporting your needs. a popular misconception about direct port is that its the end all be all of nitrous kits... but it really doesnt have much benefit over a solo fogger untill you get into the BIG SHOT hp range (200+) its instances like that (spraying a 200 or even 500 shot of nitrous) where precisely balancing the intake of fuel and nitrous is critical, for most people on this board, 95% of which know little abot or are afraid of nitrous,i would say the 50-75 shot youll be running wont harm anything if properly installed. on a side note... having been tuning cars since i can turn a wrench and racing cars since i could reach the pedals, i dont understand why ANYONE would use a dry nitrous kit on a naturally aspirated motor if 7 out of 10 people you talk to fucked it up somehow and hurt thier cars. infact, the only time ive ever used or will ever use a dry nitrous kit is to spray into the inlet of a turbo to cool the charge... anyway, if you need more details on how and why directport is, in my humble opinion, a waste of your money, let me know and ill get all technical on ya.

[djquik1]

That would be true if the V6 didn't have an intake manifold that puddled fuel when N2O was introduced to the mixture.Direct port injection is the only way possible to properly install a nitrous kit on the V6.