03 6s MTX + MSDS Headers + Injen Intake (188/188)

Quote from z6speed-

"Only dyno'd at 188 horsepower and torque, but that was with only one good pull. The
first three were in third gear, which the results were really spoaradic, so they
allowed us to try a fourth one in fourth gear to see if i could do better and it was
a little higher. Also, it looks as though he may have been premature with the
measuring device, because the graph stopped well before i stopped the car."

He went to the dyno day which i totally and completely forgot about, so yay him and boo me. Well here are his results. I am going to try to dig up his mods and car.

Hp Curve
http://www.mazda6tech.com/images/dyno/hpcurve.jpg

Tq Curve
http://www.mazda6tech.com/images/dyno/tqcurve.jpg

And guard your eyes from the ugly.. A/F curve-
http://www.mazda6tech.com/images/dyno/afratio.jpg

[z6speed]

The dyno was i believe a dynomat. The temperature for the runs i believe was 46 degrees or so and was raining pretty bad. The first three were sporadic and the guy looking at the dyno said this could have been due to cats, but running with msds headers, i am running catless. SO didn't reach the 200 whp threshold, but there will be another dyno day so next time hopefully get some better pulls in fourth. Only cost $40 for 3 pulls (got a free one bc my numbers were coming up low and sporadic) and A/F readings.

The A/F readings show much room for improvement, especially in the higher rmps. In fourth the A/F reading was running rich, going below 10 before letting off the throttle.

If anyone is interested in the dyno day, i believe it is SUnday, April 24 and they will do it again for $40 for three runs with wideband.

Also, for some comparisons with other cars there: a contour who changed out his bottom end and had an engine swap (running a 3.0 L duratec) ran i believe around 175 whp, he was looking for 20 more. Also, he gave me some good info ona lsd, which as you can guess he had and some other info we shared. Also, there was a mazda miata with the jackson racing supercharger which only put down approximately 142 whp, but only did two runs because his fuel mgmt was not up to par....as he dyno'd his A/F reading was sitting well above 14 (well that is what i assumed, left before i could ask).

[Necessity]

Do you have an intake to go along with the headers?

i am gonna try to go to the next one... yes bill, he does have an intake... this I believe (well if i go to the next dyno day we will get a better idea) proves what some of us have been speculating... that the MSDS headers are a poor option and hopefully headers that are actually built and FIT a 6 would put down more power, and would be easier to install

[z6speed]

I agree with you g-cubed, a better fitting header would bring out more power. However, the air fuel ratio in the higher rpms is running real rich right where the shorty headers should start to kick in, so with some A/F tuning, maybe these headers would work better, but just speculation on my part.

But yeah G-cubed right, i have 1st gen injen and synthetic oil, and iridium plugs.

G-cubed i'll have to meet up with you sometime, the dyno doesn;t show it but the headers kick in real hard around 4500 rpms and in first if you do not shift well you are spinning second out for a while and that goes for third too. Hopefully I'll be able to get to Atco raceway and get a 1/4 mile run in or if you know of somewhere else in the philly area please share the info; it would be greatly appreciated.

[Draxas_VP]

I just caught this post....

How are the MSDS headers for the Mazda6 not built right, or not built to fit the Mazda6?

The headers are built for the engine. and the gains people have seen with the headers have been VERY good. Any Duratec that has installed MSDS headers, whether it be a Cougar, Contour, Escape, or Mazda6 has gained GOBS of power all over the power band.

If you remember correctly, our car with only a prototype short ram intake, MSDS headers, and 2.25" exhaust dynoed 199whp.....

Nikolas

[crossbow]

The MSD headers have the flex pipe positioned in the wrong place. Its about 6-8 inches off of where it should be.

Which is one of the reasons that header owners have been experiencing exhaust leaks around the flexpipe....not to mention the increased vibration in the cabin compartment.

Additionally the amount of cutting required (and resulting alternator failure in one case) tends to indicate that these headers where ported from another duratec application instead of being specifically designed for the 6.

[stretch]

Nik, as far as I know, you never dyno'd the headers alone. You've only dyno'd the headers WITH an intake.

I believe Dave Coyne dyno'd just the headers, and found them to be a... was it 7hp gain? Anyone remember? The bulk of your gains came from the intake.

For 7hp, he had to cut up his car (alternator's heat shield, possibly leading to failure), destroy the car's good sound, shell out gobs of money, and throw emissions out the window. Not to mention the flex pipe coming loose, causing vibrations, etc.

[Draxas_VP]

(Lets try to clear some things up here)

Exhaust leaks at the flexpipe.... As in, the leaks coming FROM the flexpipe or the pipe disconnecting where the clamp/sleeve holds to two pipes together?

Excessive vibration in the cabin.... Never experienced anything out of the ordinary in Loren's Mazda6s and he has yet to report back anything negative on the headers since picking his car up (at least not to me anyways)

Lack of power gains to justify the money spent.... 7whp gained from headers...hmm, im gonna question the dyno and/or dyno operator or the state of the engine. Similary designed headers for the 2.5L/3.0L Duratec have picked up well over 12whp over the stock manifolds and Y-Pipe. Anyone in SoCal who wants to buy the headers and pay for them to be installed (or install them on their own) can get a free dyno session the next time we hit the dyno. Ideally, I would like that person to come to a dyno session BEFORE they buy/install the headers so we can get a baseline. I know this offer doesnt help the argument now, but I am EXTREMELY confident that these headers provide gains of more than 7whp.......gains should be DOUBLE that, especially if a proper exhaust system is installed with the header (i.e. 2.5" mandrel bent system)

Now, keep in mind, I did not design these headers nor do I bend/weld them. I have experience selling and owning MSDS headers for various Duratec equipped vehicles, including my 1999 2.5L Cougar.

It has been posted that long tube headers CAN be built for these engines by MSDS, but this will of course raise the price. What gains are to be had from the long tube headers, I dont know. These are 10:1 compression street motors, not 13:1 compression small block V8s. Also, the VAST majority of the pricing is influenced by economies of scale. If MSDS was selling 50 sets every month, you can bet your shorts these would not be selling for $715 for the kit.

Lets put together a detailed, factual list of "issues" that people have with the MSDS headers, and I will approach Marty at MSDS and see what he says.


Nikolas

[crossbow]

Davecoyne dyno'd before his header install, and after his header install. The headers were installed the same day as the inital and after dyno. Temp/barometric pressure was adjusted for.

It was a 10 WHP gain. (For just the headers themselves)

The complaints so far from header owners were as mentioned.

1) Vibration in the drivers compartment.
2) Flex pipe position causing excessive pipe vibration which causes the pipe joint to come loose and disconnect.
3) The amount of alternator heat shield "modification" has caused at least one instance of alternator failure. (1100USD for the new generator, talk to crazy6 for more details).

1 and 2 could easily be fixed by adjusting the flex pipe's location to match the stock location. (Instead of being 8-12 inches further down).

3 seems to be more shop related then install related, but design sense would hope that MSD would just include a new alternator shield (that worked with the header design) instead of having people cut holes in their own.

[Draxas_VP]

At the time Dave's car was dynoed, did it have the stock exhaust system on?

The flex pipe position..I will talk to Marty about this, but he has already made a design change following the reports of the pipes disconnecting. The problem is that the outer pipe is of too thick a gauge of metal, so NO clamp would be able to compress the thick pipe onto the inner pipe. He is now making that pipe out of a thinner gauge metal that will actually succumb to the pressure of the supplied clamp.

The vibration in the enging compartment.... I think the Jury is still out on this one. I will send an email to Loren and ask him if he notices anything out of the ordinary.

Heat shield modification. I will ask Marty if there is anything that can be done. How many alternators have failed on cars that have headers installed? How many alternators have failed on cars that dont have heades installed?

Nikolas

[stretch]

My mistake- it was a 10hp gain, not 7hp.

Still, being that the prototype ram intake it was dyno'd with was later shown to have pending codes, I'll assume that it was leaning out the engine just as AEM and Injen intakes do. The MSDS dyno shows a 15ft-lb gain through most of the dyno peaking at a 17hp gain, which is not far from what some intakes do alone. I'd bet most of those gains came from the intake and its slightly leaner resulting fuel mixture. Thus, 7-10hp seems pretty realistic based on MSDS's own dyno, too. They just never realized it.

Dave was running a Bosal exhaust at the time, BTW. It's just an axleback, but that's still something.

Now, 10hp isn't a bad gain, but MSDS would hint at more. Anyway, that's beside the point. Regardless of the gain, headers are going to be required to run any kind of aggressive engine timing or fuel ratios. Headers still allow you to make more power in indirect ways.

But given the costs (time, fiscal, and legal), it becomes a huge decision to purchase and install these headers. That's why the setbacks of having to cut the alternator heat shielding and worry about the flex-pipe are such big issues. This isn't a part you can easily swap back out. There should be a warning about cutting the alternator heat shielding. That scared the piss out of me when I heard it needed to be cut- don't you worry about the alternator overheating and failing? And now that several owners have reported the exact same problem with the flex-pipe coming loose, why hasn't that been resolved?

You've already responded to this claim once before, here:
http://www.mazda6club.com/forums/read.php?TID=18159

I would have serious reservations about installing or recommending these headers given these two issues, particularly as they have not been addressed. The extreme difficulty of installing the headers makes these issues quite huge, which is makes it hard to justify the headers even when looking beyond their price and legality.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. Like I said, if you want to do some serious tuning, headers are going to be mandatory, regardless of the costs.

Edit: whoops, Crossbow beat me to post, and Draxas has already responded. Damn I'm slow.

[Draxas_VP]

From my post above yours:

"The flex pipe position..I will talk to Marty about this, but he has already made a design change following the reports of the pipes disconnecting. The problem is that the outer pipe is of too thick a gauge of metal, so NO clamp would be able to compress the thick pipe onto the inner pipe. He is now making that pipe out of a thinner gauge metal that will actually succumb to the pressure of the supplied clamp. "

The change Marty is making is addressing the issue of the pipes disconnecting. Color that one done.

Alternator Failure... Who, that we know of, has experienced alternator failure while they had the MSDS headers installed?


Nikolas[/b]

[crossbow]

Crazy6 on mazda6club has had this failure, and has posted about it.

Here's the original thread.
http://www.mazda6club.com/forums/read.php?TID=16525&page=2

I've also spoken to him online about what occured, the issues he had with the headers, and the generator failure.

It is still yet unknown if it was an install problem, or was related to the generator overheating due to the amount the shop cut in the heat shield. The est amount for the repair was 1100 USD.

I can try and have him contact you directly if you'd like.

Good to hear about the pipe refinement. Has he discussed moving the flexpipe, and possibly allowing for more pipe flex? One of the shop techs installing the headers remarked that the header flex pipe was not only positioned after where the stock one began, but was MUCH stiffer then the stock flex pipe.

This could be contributing to the pipes coming loose, as well as some of the reported driver/passenger floor vibration, as well as contributing to the raspy sound. (As more vibration is resonating within the pipes).

i think all above covered all the bases but i just want to chime in real quick and agree with Steve that headers are practically required in this car to agressivly tune (especially the V6 and their pre cats) and the price isnt much of a sticking point. We realize that they werent made by you, but as you are an active point of contact thats why we are expressing our feelings. z6speed on this forum (who orginated the thread) can speak more for the install and the vibration (he did the install himself)

Thank you Draxas for coming on and answering some of the concerns and at least taking some info that we can eventually gather back to MSDS

[Draxas_VP]

I want to help you guys out as much as I can. Being that I have a close relationship with Marty, the owner of MSDS, I know I can help out. I see him in person about twice a month, if not more.

I just want to gather all of the data and report back to him, while at the same time, trying to keep it fair to the manufacturer as well.

Nikolas

[crossbow]

Nik,

I'll try and get some photos comparing the position of the stock flex pipe to the MSD one, so that you'll be able to easier explain the differences to Marty.

[Draxas_VP]

An update regarding the Alternator issues....

According to Marty (and I will have to verify this) no other Duratec application he supports even came with a heat shield for the alternator. Maybe the Mazda6 is using a different alternator than the Cougar/Contour/Escape that is more sensitive to heat? In the 3 years I have had MSDS headers installed on my 2.5L V6 Cougar, I never had issues with my alternator (no heat shield remember).... I know that Cougars in general, especially 1999 Cougars, had issues with their alternators.

Who performed the installation of the heades on Crazy6's car?


Nikolas

[crossbow]

Nik,

The 6 doesn't have an alternator persay. Its got a "generator" of which its voltage is directly regulated by the pcm. Supposedly the pcm can actually shut off the generator at higher rpm's (to reduce the pull on the engine).

The 6 is the first car I've ever seen with this type of generator (pcm controlled alternator) which is probably why its got some odd things like heatshields...

Crazy6 had his install done by a local tuner shop. They paid for the generator replacement...I think. He's been the only one with a generator failure thus far, but then the dispersal of the MSDS headers isn't exactly at injen level.

He was basically driving down the road and his car just died.

[Draxas_VP]

It has come to my attention that the reason Crazy6's Alternato/Generatorr failed was due to an error on the re-installation of the alternator/generator.

http://www.mazda6club.com/forums/read.php?TID=16525&page=2

I guess they either did not connect it properly or did not make sure the connections were secure. Either way, the shop took care of it, leading me to beleive they knew it was their mistake.


Nikolas

[crossbow]

You should talk to him on Aim or 6club pm's for further information, as his post is rather vague.

[Draxas_VP]

I just sent him a PM at Mazda6Club.... Im interested to see what he says in regards to the alternator/generator.

Nikolas

[crossbow]

Btw, I have spoken again to a few headers owners, and almost all of them have noticed cabin vibration.

G-cubed and Z6speed (who is selling his MSDS headers) both noticed this vibration and complained about it. The other few owners(2-3 more) don't wish to have their names mentioned publically. Do you have an email they could possibly contain marty at where they could relay the vibration information to him?

The vibration is most prevalant at high rpm's, and occurs at a much lesser amount while cruising or traveling at a lower rpm.

[Draxas_VP]

The owners should contact Marty at:

1-818-507-6937

If marty does not answer the phone, he is probably busy in the shop. If they leave a message for him, he WILL call them back and address the issues.

I just dont understand why customers would rather spend time complaining about something to the general public on the internet instead of calling the manufacturer and working it out with them. I could see if marty refused to help out, then they can come post about it.. But all this does is make Marty look bad when he hasnt even been given a chance to resolve the "issues".

Nikolas

[crossbow]

It seems a rather common occurance. Just look at AEM. Over 30+ Cel's and AEM's only gotten a few phone calls about. And thats just looking at the online community between 6tech and 6club. Not even touching upon the few thousand people who aren't aware of such organizations.

Maybe its the hassle? Or maybe its because most manufacturers immediately assume it was an install issue, instead of a problem with the unit itself.

Take the P0171/P0174 cel codes for example. It took months of convincing manufacturers that the intakes were causing the cel. Many of those manufacturers claimed "No cel's" or "Cel free" and yet didn't have access to scanners capable of even reading the car's information. (Injen in particular). AEM's first response? "You installed it wrong, something must be loose".

As to the headers themselves, Maybe they thought its just a byproduct of the package? Kinda something you have to live with if you want the extra power and responsiveness. A characteristic if you will.

Does Marty have an email address? I know from basic psychology that people are 10x more likely to email someone a problem then call them on the phone....and about 100x more likely to post anonymously about the same issue.

[Draxas_VP]

I do not know if Marty has an email address other than his personal one (dont know if he wants me to give that one out). I will ask him.

I have always been under the impression that customers prefer to speak to a live human being, especially when dealing with problems they want resolved. But whatever the case, Neither I nor MSDS was contacted with customer complaints regarding the issues.

Considering that just about every MSDS header has been purchased through Draxas, we should have at least been contacted. And its not like we dont make ourselves accessible through message boards, phones or email.

It just doesnt do any good towards resolving a problem by posting about problems and down talking a product on message boards, if the manufacturer hasnt been contacted first. Unless of course there are alterior motives behind the posting of said "issues" and "complaints". :wink:


Nikolas

[z6speed]

First thing, I really enjoyed the headers, they did add some good power. FOr the noise and virbation, i guess after a while i got use to it and never really notcied it.

I was just alittle disappointed in the clamp we received for connecting the flex pipe and y-pipe. I understand that this issue is being dealt with, but I believe a wider band clamp works fine, I had that in for hundreds of miles and never had a problem.. In addition, it may have reduced some noise eminatting from the crack caused by the separation of the pipes.

Also, since i had mine ceramic coated, i used an emory cloth to rough up the edges and used muffler adhesive to add grip to the joints.

My father who helped with the install, he felt that the flex was too short and could have been twisted instead of being straight and basket-weaved. This in his opinion would have allowed for more flex and less cabin vibration caused by the stiffness of the flex pipe. However, unless it was tested it may be wrong, he's been out of the game for a few years.

Overall, i would recommend the headers, once they are more mass produced, causing economies of scale, which will lower the price. I also would like to see someone add a high flow cat (Random Tech) to the area of the flex pipe, maybe creating a new one in the process. This would probably get a lot more people on board with this product, since it would help with the sound issue people have and would most likely help with the cabin vibration. Also, emissions controller.

Last thing, I would have taken this route with a high flow cat, but instead i will be getting custom headers with FI. I believe a hgih flow cat with a well designed flex pipe would make this product become more mainstream. Nicholas, I was happy with my purchase but thought there could have been some small improvement, sorry i ddn;t bring this to your attention sooner. Any questions please ask, because you guys over at Draxas are great for helping us 6 owners out.

[crossbow]

I do not know if Marty has an email address other than his personal one (dont know if he wants me to give that one out). I will ask him.

Any word on the email addy? Or should users just come here and post about the vibration complaints? (As z6speed has)

I have always been under the impression that customers prefer to speak to a live human being, especially when dealing with problems they want resolved.

Speaking to a live person directly IN person is the perferred communication type. After that, it falls down between calling and emailing, with a large push in the past few years to email communication. Unless a shop has a dedicated phone receptionist, its just a plain hassle to call. Remember how many cross communications it took calling you about davecoyne's header installation? I think we went through 6-8 phone calls (all persons involved combined) before we finally got everyone squared away at the same time. (Not just your end, the other shop as well).

Its just far easier to communicate over email...its fast, can be done over time, and you can attach things like scanned workshop diagrams and tracings instead of faxing them... :wink: .

whatever the case, Neither I nor MSDS was contacted with customer complaints regarding the issues.

In that case, why the pipe revision? (Its fantastic that marty is addressing that issue, but I'm just wondering if their weren't any complaints, why it was addressed in the first place)

It just doesnt do any good towards resolving a problem by posting about problems and down talking a product on message boards, if the manufacturer hasnt been contacted first. Unless of course there are alterior motives behind the posting of said "issues" and "complaints".

Now you know this to be false. Boards have the unique ability of "exposing" possible problems and issues, far before any complaints start hitting the manufacturer. When problems initally creep up, their often seen as "install issues", or "user related issues". Only a forum shows that more then one individual are having a problem, and move the "user issues" to "possible product issues" to "product complaints".

Here's some examples of issues solved/exposed for the Mazda 6 on online forums.

1. Injen, AEM, Draxas, Weapon-R, K&N, P0171 and P0174 Cel's, and their relationship to the PCM and LFT/SFT tables.
2. V6 Strut Bar Fitment
3. Aftermarket exhaust issues with banging/excessive movement. (Which has caused another company to work on producing aftermarket exhaust hangers).
4. Fan controller module failure.
5. Aftermarket Intakes rubbing against ABS/TCS/Headlight/Fan harness causing failure and 1100-1500 USD repair.
6. Porterfield fitment (posted by yourself)
7. Brake Squeel and Clutch Shudder
8. 6s and 6i ATX overheating issues.
9. Tranny mount and rear engine mount vulnerability

I could go on and on, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Why the reason for all this discussion and posting? I think the MSDS/Draxas headers can be improved. Improved enough to warrant additional sales? Maybe. But definitely I think they can be improved enough so that when the competitior products come out (I think their is 2-3 additional headers in development, including a "long tube"), that you can safely say without a doubt that your headers are the best on the market.

[Draxas_VP]

Email Address: I will talk to Marty today. I was at the race track all day Friday and Marty isnt in the shop over the weekend.

Pipe Revision: The only communication Marty or I ever saw regarding issues of the Y-PIpe coming apart was on a message board. The problem would have been taken care of much faster had a phone call been placed to either MSDS or myself, or at least a PM or Email to me.

Message Board Posts regarding problems: I will agree that it does help posting about problems one has with their car or a product, but I will hold firm in my opinion that it does no good to rip a product on a message board. This is especially the case when what is being posted is based on limited information and/or lack of communication with the manufacturer of said product.

Its one thing to post fuel trim data from a car that has an Injen or AEM CAI installed and another to accuse a company of supplying poorly designed headers.

Competition on Headers: I am a firm believer in competition being good for all parties. I just think that people will be in for a surprise when other companies release headers for the Mazda6. The quality of the MSDS headers, in terms of welds, cuts, deburring, assembly, ceramic coating, etc will be VERY hard to beat. MSDS can cut corners, just like MANY "top name" header manufacturers do, to save cost. Marty could employ $8/hour welders who could give a crap about the quality of their work and Marty could have shitty QC, but he doesnt. I honestly think it would be a good idea for Marty to open his shop up for a tour of the facility one day. Maybe we can have a SoCal meeting at his place with a BBQ or something. Im sure that if other board members see the effort that goes into these headers (from start to finish) and get to meet Marty in person, and then post about it here or at Mazda6Club, then it might sound better than coming from me.



Nikolas

where'd you go to with a $40 price for three runs?!?!? that's incredible

[z6speed]

Guest,

Not sure where you are located, but I went to a shop in between Philly and Lancaster called Xotic Motorsports, good shop. There website can be found below and yes that is a great price with wideband readings. The $40 was for an event put on by www.turboforum.net ; so you just have to watch out for them. They also have other events for other forums and organizations.

I will most likely be going back to this shop for Utec tuning later down the road when I have the funds to afford the engine management and the tuning time (different vehicle than M6s).

http://www.xoticmotorsports.com/